Ep 9-Bulimia Recovery with Jacqueline Davis

April 4, 2024

Today we have a special guest, Jacqueline Davis, a binge eating & bulimia recovery coach & podcast host.

She helps people get out of the toxic cycle with binging and purging by encouraging eating enough, eating consistently, and learning how to feel those damn feelings.

Jacqueline shares her personal journey and opens up about the turning point in her recovery, with insights from her experiences in various forms of therapy and coaching.

We cover…

• common misconceptions surrounding eating disorders

• the value in sharing one's recovery story

• differences between getting therapy and coaching

• releasing the shame around bulimia and binge eating

 Amber:

Hello, confident eaters. I am here today with our very first guest and I am so excited. I am having Jacqueline Davis on our podcast today. She is one of my very good coach friends. We know each other in person. We hang out all the time in Denver and she is a bulimia coach and I'll let Jacqueline, you can introduce yourself.

Jacqueline:

Yeah. Hi. I help people with bulimia and binge eating. My name is Jacqueline. I struggled with bulimia and binge eating for specifically about four years, but it's disorder dating for a long time, even in childhood a little bit. And I live in Denver as Amber says, we hang out and I have a podcast called binge breakers, my website's called binge breakers.

So if you want to find lots of bulimia content, how to recover, and then also like maybe a dark humor to it, you can go check out my Instagram or podcast or anything like that.

Amber:

Yeah. Jacqueline's Instagram is amazing. Like I think I strive to be more like you and then I sometimes I feel like I have more like Put together

Jacqueline:

You're stuff in like the best way, you know  saying like I think we both inspire each other though. Like, I want to be more like Jacqueline. Like, she has such funny content and I always, like, want to be seen as funny because I think it brings such, like, a lightness to the topic that we all need sometimes. So I think, you know, like, definitely check out her Instagram because it's hilarious and she has so much good content

 Thank you. I will say that the Instagram, it is the way it is because it's the only way I can possibly make that content. It's just like, bleh, this is my content. But, uh, yeah, your Instagram content is stellar too. All the videos you put out are really informative. And it always looks very clean and professional.

It's like, how do I be more like Amber? So, yeah.

Amber:

Thank you. So why don't we just start by going to your story, you know, with bulimia, with binge eating, and kind of how you got to where you are today.

Jacqueline:

Yeah, so like I said, I struggled a little bit with anorexia and bulimia in high school, early high school. But then, I don't remember it as well, but I know that I started making more friends. I had moved to a different high school and I got some therapy for it, and I think I just let it go. I was always a little bit concerned ever since puberty happened of like how my body was changing and that sort of stuff.

But I think it really was at that time an initial way to control the environment around me and to focus on something else. And also just dealing with a changing body and the societal pressures that are put on people. But then all was well. My senior year of high school, I entered into like a really long term relationship and

there was a lot of focus around fitness and your body. And that slowly introduced me more into that world again, when I probably shouldn't have so much been in that world, but throughout my college years. I really just remember constantly trying to lose weight. And then I would regain it, lose weight, regain it.

And I never binged or purged most of that time. But I would have actually, now that I think back to it, things that were truly binges, I just didn't realize they were binges. Like I would try to, you know, fast for 24 hours, something like that. And then eat a whole bunch of food. And it just was very focused on food and weight. And unfortunately, because of that, my college experience, like my, I had a very limited friend group, didn't go out a lot, that sort of stuff. But anyway, I did get the opportunity to study abroad in Manchester, which is really great. And then during that time, again, when my life was bigger, I let go of my eating disorder a little bit.

And I was around a very healthy friend group that ate normally. But then when I came back, some really toxic things happened and I was strongly encouraged that I needed to lose weight again and encouraged to kind of do pretty disordered things to my body in order to lose that weight. And then I went on a very intense regimen for that.

And eventually the bulimia and binge eating started shortly after that period of losing like a lot of weight in a not healthy way in a short amount of time. And then it was about four years of, Secretly binging and purging and wondering what was wrong with me. I didn't tell my family. I told my ex partner at the time and then one of my friends knew near the very end that I was struggling with it, but I didn't know what to do.

But eventually I did read Brain Over Binge by Katherine Hansen, like early days in bulimia. I didn't didn't recover from that, but it is such a good resource and really taught me that maybe there's something habitual about it. And maybe there's an addiction aspect and maybe I don't have to binge and perch.

Maybe there's something. But eventually what helped me really was I listened to this podcast by Corinne Crabtree. It was all about weight loss, but she just started speaking about how you don't have to treat yourself so poorly. You can think different thoughts. And part of the reason you're overeating the way that you are is because of

the fact that you are mean to yourself. And that was her basic message. I was like, wow, this person sounds like me. So I was very depressed and dark and horrible to myself during that time too. And so I started thinking a little bit better. I got more into life coaching and I started looking at like, maybe food isn't just fuel.

Maybe there's an emotional tie to food and that's part of the reason. And then I started listening to self development podcasts, learning about people starting businesses, that sort of stuff. And so that's, it started expanding my horizon and realizing that I didn't just want to be a functional bulimic really is what I put it down to.

And so eventually, I had reduced my behaviors quite a bit and then I hopped on a coaching call because I was getting group coaching and some private coaching during that time. And I just told this person like, It was Janet Archer was her name. And I said, I really don't want to be minging and purging.

I need help with this. And she was like, have you tried pausing? And it was just this very simple mindfulness tactic that she proposed. And at first I thought she was stupid. I was like, of course I've tried pausing. What do you mean? But she was like, no, no, no. Have you tried taking a moment in that automatic action where you want to do something?

And instead of saying, no, I'm not going to do it, or I am going to do it, just taking a moment to be with it. And feel your feelings there. And so I tried it and it was very helpful. And I didn't binge and perch for the first time ever, so automatically. And then from there I started recovery, started not bingeing and perching, and eating more food.

Jumped into an intuitive eating and eventually during the pandemic, decided a podcast would be a good idea and took it from there.  

Amber:

Think our stories have a lot in common and I have actually gone on Jacqueline's podcast a bit ago,

  um,  and hopefully coming up in the next few weeks too, but very similar to me where it all started kind of in high school and no one really tells you that like, you're supposed to gain weight as you're becoming a woman.

Like no one tells  you it's very normal to get hips and boobs and thighs. And then you're like freaking out because you're like, well, why am I? All of a sudden over a hundred pounds, like this, something is going horribly wrong when really it's like puberty.

Jacqueline:

Yeah. It's just a normal body changing. Yeah. 

Amber:

right. So same with me, like kind of like freaking out about that and then getting the societal message all of a sudden that as a woman, you're constantly supposed to be losing weight. So it's like, well, that must be something I'm supposed to be doing. And then of course we look back all these years later and we're like. Oh, if I had just like accepted my body weight then and just continued my life Like I never probably would have struggled with these many years of disordered eating You know if I just like kept it the same As I as as it was I know so many women look back on they're like their first experiences dieting and it's like why?

Did we even start like we would have been fine? So I think you know when we think about younger generations, I think it's so important to really show them The realities like becoming a woman and gaining weight and not needing to have this Weight loss constantly part of our life, no matter how we look, that's that message that's always taught to us.

Jacqueline:

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate now, obviously you're a bit younger than me, but even when we were going to school, I know when I was going to school, I thought it was more progressive and it was compared to what my parents went through, but I think came back to it, people are still very mean to body sizes that we didn't see regularly and considered, you know, having thick with like the thigh gap was still a big thing back then.

And I know now there's other things of Kim Kardashian and like the heroin chic or whatever. But there was still a lot of pressure of like, thinness is the only way to go. And I appreciate now that the youth are growing up with much more body diversity. And even if it isn't immediately in front of them, they can go online and see a lot of different diverse bodies on Instagram.

There's so many more people. And on TikTok, I'm sure too. Like so many more people promoting different bodies. bodies and you can find beauty and you don't need to be a size zero to be that, you know?

Amber:

I have so many other points I want to go off of your story that I think are like so good and so similar to mine, where one of them, I also worked with a weight loss coach, like a very similar big weight loss coach for a few years. And I think that's where people go to at first when they're struggling because it's like, well, I'm gaining weight. Do you feel like that experience? Like obviously it was part of your journey and you learned a lot from it. And I feel, you know, the same way, but do you think that's a common place that people go to is kind of these weight loss coaches? And do you think it tends to like harm their journey? Or do you think it's a good starting

Jacqueline:

Yeah, that's a good question. I definitely think a lot of people when they're struggling with even something as severe as binge eating and bulimia, they think the answer is just finding the right weight loss program. And that's why I came across this coach was cause I was like, if I could just learn how to not eat a ton of food and I could just be in more control, that's clearly the problem.

Um, And that's why I kept searching for it. And when I found her, what was really helpful was she wasn't just like, eat less food and go eat 1400 calories and call it a day. It was very much so about like, listening to your body, being intuitive, and being kinder and having your mindset in the right place.

So which I think a lot of weight loss people do not talk about. But it's a common error and most of the weight loss advice I found was not helpful. She was only helpful because she was different in that sense. And, I'm not someone who thinks that weight loss is evil or that you can never try to lose weight, but I don't think weight loss and recovery should be combined.

And for the most part, a lot of people that teach weight loss are teaching it That are not, you know, eating disorder informed. They're not trauma informed. They're just not informed in general on the many different things that contribute to weight gain and weight loss. And especially if you're binging and purging.

When I lived in Florida, I briefly worked with a coach on nutrition and fitness. And I quickly fired her because she was like, Oh, I've totally worked with people that have had eating disorders in the past and it'll be fine. And she just was like telling me to do like, track all my food, be super aware of everything and eat only whole foods and healthy foods.

And she was trying to get me to eat like high volume things that were lowering calorie. And I was like, I can't do this. Like, this is not, so no, I don't think it's helpful in recovery journeys for the most part.

Amber:

 totally had a similar experience. I didn't officially work with someone, but just, you know, you look up like, Oh, I'm overeating. Like, what do I do? It's like the high volume stuff. And I'm like, well, now I'm eating high volume and still binge eating. So now I'm like in super

 pain  because I'm so full. And I have like, 10 cups of cauliflower in. well as all  the stuff I just and so I feel like it just like you really need someone who Has kind of been in the trenches as well and who's really aware of like those things can be triggering to have these calorie counts and to eat in that high volume way and I know also Like speaking of volume eating I felt like almost that would be a trigger for me because I feel so full and it would be like this uncomfortable feeling of full that I'd be like, well, screw it.

I'm already overly full. Even if it was like lower calorie food, I never really would learn how to eat in normal amounts when I was doing the volume eating.

Jacqueline:

Yeah, because there's a way when you're struggling with binge eating and bulimia that you need to moderate with love and compassion. Like, you do need to tell yourself, no, in a sense, like we can't keep going further down the line to be this binge type full. But at the same time, you need to practice being a little bit uncomfortable and full sometimes, and binge eating and then not purge, right?

And so there's these two different, it's like a tightrope sort of walk that you're doing whenever you're trying to not binge and not purge. And those are both things. Yeah, anyway, I don't know where I was going for that, other than it is difficult and there's certain lines you have to not cross, but also practice being at. 

Amber:

So you mentioned that you didn't tell anyone for a long time that you were struggling and like, again, same with me. Like I only told my best friend and like my parents when I absolutely needed financial help. But how did you go from the point where you were just like, you know, in shame, hiding, not wanting anyone to know about this, to all of a sudden being this person on the internet talking about bulimia so openly and freely and helping other

Jacqueline:

Oh, that's a deep question. Yeah, so the first person I actually told was my ex boyfriend at the time. And, I just knew it had been about a year since I was struggling and I felt like I needed to get therapy. I also felt like I was crazy and I just didn't know what to do. And I also felt like I was lying to him quite a bit about it.

And I would also, as we all know with Believe Me, I'm Binge Eating, you, have erratic moods from your behaviors. Like it'd be like one time I'm fine. And then suddenly I binge and purge and I'm not okay. Or I want to binge and purge. So I'm not okay. It's just like all these things. So I eventually on our way home from grocery store, just kind of flirted it out that I was struggling and he was really receptive and kind.

And fortunately, I think some people, when they tell their partners, those partners with the best of intention want to be kind and want to be help them get better. So they just watch them like a hawk and like are overly attentive. My ex was much better about just letting me be independent and understanding it was my journey and that if I wanted to talk about it, we could talk about it, but he wasn't going to bring it up or like watch me, which was, was nice for sure.

But that didn't eventually, that didn't lead to recovery in a way. Maybe it did, but I didn't recover until like three years later. But the thing that I found helpful about that was when I actually told him a weight was lifted and the fact that he, you know, when you're in your head about it, you think that you are actually crazy and then it's insane and you just feel like this double life.

But he reacted in a really calm way of, Oh, I'm sorry. That's he wasn't like, I'm shocked. And like all these things I thought he was going to be. And that helps affirm for me that like, okay, maybe you're not crazy. Maybe you're just struggling with something and there is help that you can get. So it was good.

And then eventually when I did recover and I, but the year before I started the podcast, I was focusing a lot on just kind of expanding my life and working at the jobs I did have. And I was in a place that between with my career and I had started hosting this women's group. Because I was an entrepreneur and I wanted to talk with other women that were had their own businesses.

And then for some reason that kind of grew and I realized. I don't like organized conversation for people each week. We didn't just show up and stare at each other. And I realized that I was doing coaching and then I'd also like, listen to coaches a lot online. So when the pandemic hit, I knew I really wanted to start coaching and doing stuff.

I felt like it was my opportunity. And then I had this coaching call with someone where they were like, well, what do you want to niche down in? And. I finally told her, like, I think I want to do disordered eating. I think I could really help people, but I feel really ashamed of it. And I actually hope put that episode, like that call recording on a podcast of mine.

So if you want to check it out, you can find it. But I started crying. So like, I realized there was so much shame still, even though I was recovered, I felt so embarrassed that I had struggled with it. And she was like, this is your work to do, to move through that fear and say it anyway. And so then after that, shortly after that call, I think I recorded the podcast episode.

I told my parents a week before the podcast episode that I, in fact, have been struggling with bulimia for four years as an adult. And they were like, Oh my gosh. And then a week later I released the podcast. And I just, instead of like telling people, I just posted it on Facebook. And then I moved on. And then I went for like a run immediately after that because I was so scared.

So that's what happened. But I got to say, like, Even though people don't need to be podcast hosts or coaches about it, it's so helpful to tell people. It's just like you, you own it and then you take back any control you think that or whatever people's judgments are, you take that away. And you're just like, this is what I struggle with.

What are you going to do? You know, it's really nice.

Amber:

I'm not sure if this happened to you too, I'm guessing so. But I know when I did my first Instagram post, like the confident eater, and I announced that I was starting this thing and going to offer like advice on eating basically, and that I had struggled with binge eating and bulimia and overeating and all of these things, I had so many people in my life come forward and tell me they struggled too and maybe it wasn't the same, like intensity as I was struggling with, but to some degree, pretty much every single one of my friends was like, I'm struggling with disordered eating. It's so hard. And, you know, I never know like how to manage my eating habits. And I'm always feeling, I need to lose weight and I always want to lose weight. And how do I manage this? And it was really healing for me to see that. And for anyone listening, again, you don't have to go start a podcast or an Instagram or tell all your friends about it, but I think just knowing that there are other people out there that are struggling and. It just really people don't really talk about it is so healing and so freeing that again. Yeah, like you said, you're not going crazy.

There's nothing wrong with you. It just people do keep this as more of like a secret inside of them. But if you were to look at especially women, like most of our eating habits are, I think a lot of people have disordered eating habits in a lot of different ways. We just don't talk

Jacqueline:

Yeah, absolutely. I found the same thing. A lot of people reached out that I knew and they're like, Hey, this is really helpful. I needed this, and like, I've been struggling with this too, and it's, it's sad. And then that goes back to what we were talking about. I don't think we were recording yet, but a lot of people think it's just normal to have like, oh, occasionally I purge my food, or occasionally I don't eat for days at a time, or something like that.

Or like, I can't control myself around a box of doughnuts, or like, when everyone leaves, they're like, It's from the party, I eat all the leftovers, or I have to throw everything out and spray it with cleaner. Otherwise, I'm going to eat it out of the trash. It's like, that's not normal, and it shouldn't be normalized.

Just like with drinking alcohol and then throwing up after it, that probably shouldn't be normalized as much either, right? But it's so common, and society teaches us that, we have to do those things in order to, I don't know, live functionally, be acceptable, and it's just not true, but it is normalized, and it's nice to know other people are going through it, I suppose. Mm

Jacqueline:

Yeah, absolutely. I found the same thing. A lot of people reached out that I knew and they're like, Hey, this is really helpful. I needed this, and like, I've been struggling with this too, and it's, it's sad. And then that goes back to what we were talking about. I don't think we were recording yet, but a lot of people think it's just normal to have like, oh, occasionally I purge my food, or occasionally I don't eat for days at a time, or something like that.

Or like, I can't control myself around a box of doughnuts, or like, when everyone leaves, they're like, It's from the party, I eat all the leftovers, or I have to throw everything out and spray it with cleaner. Otherwise, I'm going to eat it out of the trash. It's like, that's not normal, and it shouldn't be normalized.

Just like with drinking alcohol and then throwing up after it, that probably shouldn't be normalized as much either, right? But it's so common, and society teaches us that, we have to do those things in order to, I don't know, live functionally, be acceptable, and it's just not true, but it is normalized, and it's nice to know other people are going through it, I suppose. Mm

Amber:

you can imagine a different and better relationship with food, it exists and you can get there if it feels like there's gotta be something better than this and is this really like how I'm supposed to eat forever and ever but like all my friends are dieting and all my friends say these things Just think if there's that possibility out there that it could be different chances are it is possible for you to eat differently to interact with food differently and sometimes just Recognizing that your social circle is maybe doing all the same things can help give you perspective on oh, you know Maybe it's just how I'm eating used to being and especially people, their moms and grandmas, maybe that modeled these behaviors for you too.

It might seem more normal than it actually is just because that's what you grew up

Jacqueline:

Yeah, it's like a cult, you know, like they're all drinking the Kool Aid, I might as well drink it, right? And that's why when I did get to study abroad, I was with Three other roommates that were very safe and overall normal eaters. Like they all had their own things for sure, but they were pretty normal.

And it helped me then start eating more normally, which is I ended up having a more healthy weight during that time. And it was just being around the right influence, like it's very important what you're taking in. A big thing I tell people in my group program and then one on ones is like, what are you consuming online?

And let's clean up your Instagram feed or wherever you're getting your content. And like, that's cut out the IG models, or at least mute their posts or something like that. You don't need to be seeing that stuff right now. It's not helpful. Or like, if there's someone in your life that's constantly encouraging dieting, at the very least, if you can't cut them out, like don't bring up that in conversation.

Don't talk about it. Don't engage in it.

Amber:

I want to go back to where you were talking about that. You like had some experience with therapy and I'm always curious to know people's experiences with it because I went to therapy only for like four months and I absolutely hated it every single time I went and I did try a few different therapists.

But like, I would be curious to know, you know, what made you decide to do coaching? What's the benefit of doing coaching and what's been your experience with therapy, especially in the bulimia realm. I think that's where people go to first.

Jacqueline:

Yeah, that's a really good question. So, the therapy I had when I was, Like a little freshman in high school. I don't remember it very well. I do remember a few moments, and it really just felt like maybe she didn't know. Yeah, one time I remember I binged on a pizza and I told her about it, and she was like, Yeah, that's probably not the best normal quantity to eat.

But I don't remember her ever telling me, you know, stuff that I should do or shouldn't do, like give me any direction. It was just kind of a place to talk about it. And I think if I brought up odd behavior, she would just kind of be like, Oh yeah, well, why do you think you did that? And so I suppose it gave me a lot more awareness around things for sure.

And I don't even know what, like, thinking back to it so long ago, I'm not even sure. I think it was just, Not even kind of, I think it was just talk therapy, like just talking back and forth and asking a few questions. But it was fine. And then it felt like a place that I was heard and there was a lot going on at the time, too.

So it's helpful. And then the only other therapy I've had is actually this past year. I was in contact with a therapist. We talk pretty much weekly due to like the breakup that I had last year and just like, and that was again, she was like, It was just talk therapy. There was a little bit of, she would give me some direction sometimes or like feedback, but it really just was like a place to openly vent without judgment.

And also a place that I felt like I could go to where if I wasn't seeing things clearly, I could ask, you know, and be like, what do you think of this? I should do here. When I started doing coaching, I didn't do it with the hopes that it was going to solve my bulimia. I would like, I was committed to the idea that I was going to be a functional bulimic and there was no hope for me.

I just wanted to do coaching because I felt like I wanted to change my life and I wanted to own a business someday. I wanted to like do big things. I wanted to just feel happier and coaching was really good for me and allow, separating myself from my thoughts and understanding that my thoughts are something that I have a responsibility for.

You can't control every thought that you have, but you can control what thoughts you think on purpose. And also how to be more constructive with what I thought and said and did. And also take responsibility for certain things in my life and how to, how to change my life, really. And I think the biggest difference between coaching and therapy.

One, obviously coaches aren't licensed therapists. And then two therapy, depending on what it is, coaching is a lot more action driven and coaches, you're kind of paying them to hear your thoughts out, but they're going to give you feedback and push you a lot more towards your goals because that's what you have agreed upon.

And that's what you're working with them for. Usually goals are for specific, uh, things that you're working towards. And coaches I think can be a bit more candid and like, we may dive into some deeper thoughts and things, but I think it's very much so like, what's going on with you this week? What are your goals?

What, okay, what are the challenges coming up? And how can we work through those challenges? Whereas therapy is like a lot more exploratory, there's a lot of different modalities going on there. And a lot of times exploratory It's exploring trauma and stuff like that too, and PTSD and other more big topics.

So I'd say that's like, that's what I go to coaching for, and coaching's always been helpful for me, and pursuing my goals and achieving them. That's what I'd say. Yeah.

Amber:

Totally. I felt like in therapy, I was often just like going around in circles. And I remember my therapist, she had me do a food diary where I had to write down the exact emotion I was feeling every time I ate. And nothing has confused me more in my life. Cause I just felt like I wasn't really feeling much.

I'm like, I don't know. I'm just going through my day. Like nothing's going on. And I think it did build awareness for sure. Like I did get more awareness of my thoughts and feelings, but I think also that is very much the perspective of therapists, you know, asking a lot of why, which as coaches, we ask why a lot too. But I think it is, especially there's the traditional talk therapy. It's really good to get your story heard and out, but there also comes a point where you need more

 direction  and you need to figure out like what actual skills do I need to have here? And having someone who's been there in your shoes with you, it's really good. Can give you a step by step plan is what oftentimes I find people need versus just like telling them about your day and how you felt. It's like, okay, well, what do we do with that now? And, and why are we still eating? And the coach can help give you direction on that

Jacqueline:

absolutely. And I think that coaches, they're, you're paying for and you're consenting to them to push you towards your goals and to hold belief for you that you can reach those and relentlessly show you ways that you can reach those goals. And that's what coaches did for me and that's what I tried to do for my clients.

is every time they come to a session, even if they're struggling and they're down, it's like, here, I still believe that you can do it. Here's how you can do it. And let's keep going. Versus therapy, as it rightfully should be, they're not always as attached to the outcome. Some therapy, you can absolutely have a specific goal and it just depends, but the traditional talk therapy, that sort of stuff, I think it is very much so like, this is just your space that is safe to talk about things.

And I'm not going to tell you what you should be thinking or shouldn't be thinking. I'm just going to. Hold that space for you. And that's, that's okay. And that's needed, but it's not everything to reach your action or your goals. And the food diary thing. Also, I'll occasionally have clients do this the fear food exercise or whatever, where they'll journal while they're eating a food that they're really scared of. But it's not anything I'd recommend doing long term. Like, it's a one time or twice time kind of event where you're, like you said, raise awareness. But then people that literally, again, track your food for a week or for months, or write down every single time you eat something, what you're feeling, and then what you did afterwards, it's unrealistic.

And it's being much more hyper aware, which you don't need long term. Yeah,

Amber:

I'm saying this, I'm like, well, I actually do do a food diary with my clients, but I have them write down the time that they ate. The food that they had, where they had it, and then any notes they want to add. So if they have like nothing to say about it, like whatever, you don't have to add any notes, but I do think it can be a good awareness building exercise.

And same thing if you're having like a food that triggers you or that you're used to binging on taking that moment to pause and really look at like, What's going on in my brain while I'm eating this food can be really insightful. But I don't think there needs to be this pressure on every time you eat.

You have to figure out what thoughts and feelings are going on. Because sometimes we are just trying to get through our day and just trying to eat. But really using that as more of a tool to investigate the times that you're eating things in a way you don't want to be eating them to get more insights around what's happening in those moments.

Jacqueline:

it's interesting when you start recovery, you kind of consume a lot of recovery content and, and get hyper aware of everything. But then you, like you said, you have to back off a little bit and then kind of ride the roller coaster and do things without focusing so much on it.

It's interesting, not parallel. I'm not thinking of the word for it, but contradiction. Absolutely.

Amber:

Because you do need to be intentional. Like this is something that I think people have a hard time on is they want to become like this natural eater who doesn't think about food at all. But the irony is sometimes we have to like think about food first to get the awareness of it and work on it really hard in order to get to the place where we don't think about food.

And it is just like a natural, easy thing. Like we have to create that habit. But in order to do that, we're going to have to put in some energy and effort to make those

Jacqueline:

Yeah, it's like cleaning out your closet. You know, you gotta take everything out, dust it off, organize it, and then put it all back in the right way.

Amber:

So are there any last thoughts or tips that you want to leave people with

Jacqueline:

I think that The biggest thing for me that I noticed with people is that recovery journeys, this is going to sound basic, but it is true. The recovery journeys are most definitely not linear.

I don't know. And the only one part I've only had one person tell me. That their recovery journey was linear. And I don't believe that person for a second. Everyone else has said that's not the case. And I've worked in this field and then I've had bulimia for longer, but like working in this field for four years now, I've seen people that I worked with in the very beginning.

And then they're still in contact with me now and they all have come back and been like, it was a bumpy road at times. Sometimes I struggled, but I'm still so much better for it. And I've learned so much. And every single down that I had. was a crucial part of my recovery step. And there were times where I remember talking with them and they thought like, there's no way I can recover.

And then they did. So, they're not linear, but then also if you feel like right now you're totally lost from, for binge eating. I know most of your audience are binge eaters, but like binge eating or bulimia or any other eating disorder, you think there's no way I can change and be different, but just know that just because you think that it's not necessarily true and there is a way you just can't understand it or see it yet.

And I always tell people this, and it was helpful for me actually in changing many aspects of my life, but it's what makes me hold belief for any client I work with, which is, you know, if you're a human being, You're capable of change. If you're capable of change, you're capable of recovery. So it's not a question of if you can recover, it's just a question of how and just keep trying until you find out that how.

Amber:

Our brains are constantly changing. Like even this conversation you and I just had, like, I am now a different person with new thoughts and new feelings and new beliefs every single second of the day. So it's like, we are literally made of change. Like our cells are being born and dying. Like our body is not the same as it was yesterday either.

So we are always constantly in the state of change and I do appreciate, you know, it is like the common advice of like, Oh, like your growth is not linear, but I really want people to hear that when they are on the low parts, right? And then it's like, well, you want to get up. Things feel so hard. And we got to forget, or we need to not forget the big picture that the ups and downs are a guarantee of any journey doing anything new. And I think sometimes with eating people think, well, it's not really a new skill. Like I should know how to do this, but it is, if you're used to binging, to purging, to overeating, to not listening to your body for many, many, many years, You are learning a new skill and you're going to mess it up sometimes you're going to go back to your old habits, but if you can take the big picture scale and be like, but look at yesterday, I was doing so well.

I was on the up, you know, today might be on the down, but this is just how we learn and grow. And that's what gives us the success in the longterm is we just don't give up. We accept those ups and downs and we keep going.

Jacqueline:

And people, I hear that a lot too, it's like people shame themselves for I should know how to eat food. It's like, most people don't know how to eat food. That's not a good thing, but most people do not know how to do it correctly. So yeah, absolutely. And the up and down thing, I was just literally on a hiking trail up a mountain Saturday.

And I like comparing the linear journeys to that as like, sometimes when you're hiking up a mountain, you literally have to go down to go up. Like you've got to go around this weird rock and they carve the path in this way, so you're going down. You're like, I'm supposed to go up a mountain. It's like you are going up the mountain.

You just have to go around. So I like that visual, tangible example for linear, nonlinear journeys. 

Amber:

That's a great example. And sometimes it's fun to go

 around. Like  sometimes it takes you into a new scenery that you wouldn't have seen before had you just gone straight up the

 mountain. I'm sure people are like, oh god, I don't want to see new scenery. I just want to see the top of the mountain, but that's not how it works.  

So tell the people where they can find you and how they could work with you.

Jacqueline:

they can find me at Binge Breakers. I have a podcast completely free called Binge Breakers, and it's on most platforms. And it's all about bulimia and binge eating recovery content. I'm doing a one on one series. I'm doing a new thing where I do two episodes per week. I don't know if I'll keep it up after April, but, or after April mid is when it's supposed to end.

But there's a series on the one on ones, like how to stop binging, how to stop purging, how to feel your feelings, and that's been really popular, so you can check that out there. And you can go to my website, Binge Breakers, you can work with me one on one, or I do eight week group programs, and they're only open a certain amount of time.

The new one for my late April group is opening soon. I can't tell you exact dates on that, but you can go to my website to find out more. And then I also have an Instagram, bingebakers underscore bulimia, and you can follow me there for goofy content and, like, kind of just whatever's on my mind sort of thing.

But it's helpful content all the same, so check me out there too.

Amber:

Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, friend. I'm so grateful for you and for our friendship and just this beautiful coaching relationship that we

 have.  And I'll talk to you

Jacqueline:

Thank you so much for having me.